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Theory for why we have DS1 and DS1/E

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Henry Krinkle View Post
    Furthermore, My Diastar 8 has an A Schild movement without a code, which is typical. Both of the Diastar 8/1s had coded ETA movements, also typical. Since these are not only contemporary, but virtually the same watch other than the movement this implies to me that these are movement dating codes not watch codes.
    I'm unsure whether I fully agree with your statement above, Henry.
    Below are the 8 and 8/1 I previously owned. I would have to look at records I keep elsewhere to determine which movement was in each, but it is clear they have different dials, and I had never had reason to suspect each was not an original survivor. Prior to any theory that it pertained to the movement family, I had assumed the difference in nomenclature was pertinent to the difference in dials.

    Diastar 8:


    Diastar 8/1:

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Watch Carefully View Post
      I'm unsure whether I fully agree with your statement above, Henry.
      Below are the 8 and 8/1 I previously owned. I would have to look at records I keep elsewhere to determine which movement was in each, but it is clear they have different dials, and I had never had reason to suspect each was not an original survivor. Prior to any theory that it pertained to the movement family, I had assumed the difference in nomenclature was pertinent to the difference in dials.

      Diastar 8:


      Diastar 8/1:
      I would agree with you in modern times...but not then.

      This is a Diastar 1 625.0001.3

      P4070010 by Hank Blanc, on Flickr

      While this

      P8072733 by Hank Blanc, on Flickr


      is a Diastar 1 625.0001.3

      Virtually everything is different on these two- dials, hands, crystals and one is chronometer spec while the other isn't.

      Also, by typical in both cases, I mean that ASchild movements generally don't seem to have a date code like the ETAs do, supporting my argument that they are not watch dating codes.
      Last edited by Henry Krinkle; 05-11-2017, 01:25 PM.
      Solve all your doubts through question mode.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Henry Krinkle View Post
        Furthermore, My Diastar 8 has an A Schild movement without a code, which is typical. Both of the Diastar 8/1s had coded ETA movements, also typical. Since these are not only contemporary, but virtually the same watch other than the movement this implies to me that these are movement dating codes not watch codes.
        Originally posted by Watch Carefully View Post
        I'm unsure whether I fully agree with your statement above, Henry.
        Below are the 8 and 8/1 I previously owned. I would have to look at records I keep elsewhere to determine which movement was in each, but it is clear they have different dials, and I had never had reason to suspect each was not an original survivor. Prior to any theory that it pertained to the movement family, I had assumed the difference in nomenclature was pertinent to the difference in dials.
        Yes, dials are different but again another example of contemporary watches (DS8's) with different movements. This is probably a good idea for a DS8 thread. For instance, is there examples of DS8 with ETA and 8/1 with AS? If so perhaps it's only the dials.
        Last edited by Tim.; 05-11-2017, 07:34 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Henry Krinkle View Post

          Also, by typical in both cases, I mean that ASchild movements generally don't seem to have a date code like the ETAs do, supporting my argument that they are not watch dating codes.
          Ok, so as far as I know there are no date codes on the AS movements, however, just because Rado didn't use date codes prior to 1968 doesn't rule out the decision to start using them with the change to ETA. Manufacturing practices can change and improve over time.
          Both examples of DS1 you've shown have 8 digit ref and ETA movement, so are, theoretically at least, after the E was dropped. We have not yet seen evidence of a 1/E with an AS movement or a non 8 digit DS1 with an ETA movement.
          Last edited by Tim.; 05-11-2017, 06:46 PM.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Henry Krinkle View Post
            I have no reason to suspect that this movement is not the original movement for this Alpine, yet the code seems to indicate...1972(?)... EDIT: And never mind the rest of what I initially wrote...

            I tend to think that the stamping was done by ETA for Rado, or if Rado did it, it was done when the movements were recieived.
            Hi Henry, is there reason to think that this watch wasn't manufactured in Nov '72?

            Comment


            • #21
              More data please EoT's

              We have not yet seen evidence of a 1/E with an AS movement or a non 8 digit DS1 with an ETA movement. If anyone has one of these please say so and we can put this one to bed now.
              Otherwise, please post 1/E codes both earlier than 105 and later than 309 also DS1 with 8 digit ref earlier than 408, that way we can see when 1/E starts and finishes, also when 8 digit refs starts.
              Last edited by Tim.; 05-11-2017, 08:24 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Tim. View Post
                Hi Henry, is there reason to think that this watch wasn't manufactured in Nov '72?

                No. Certainly not the movement, almost certainly not the watch. I am working with a 19 year old cat who was deathly ill mere days ago. I caught my own mistake, edited it, but left the post.
                Solve all your doubts through question mode.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Tim. View Post
                  Yes, dials are different but again another example of contemporary watches (DS8's) with different movements. This is probably a good idea for a DS8 thread. For instance, is there examples of DS8 with ETA and 8/1 with AS? If so perhaps it's only the dials.
                  But, and this is part of my point to Brad, there were models with unchanged references but different dials in the near past and, as my Diastar 1s show, radically different watches with the same reference in the very near future. Rado was capable of almost anything but breaking with established practice for one single watch for a simple dial change in the midst of a profound change in movement supply seems unlikely to me.
                  Solve all your doubts through question mode.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Henry Krinkle View Post
                    This is a Diastar 1 625.0001.3

                    P4070010 by Hank Blanc, on Flickr

                    While this

                    P8072733 by Hank Blanc, on Flickr


                    is a Diastar 1 625.0001.3

                    Virtually everything is different on these two- dials, hands, crystals and one is chronometer spec while the other isn't.

                    Also, by typical in both cases, I mean that ASchild movements generally don't seem to have a date code like the ETAs do, supporting my argument that they are not watch dating codes.
                    What about these DiaStars, Henry? Sure about the references?
                    625.xxxx.x stands for an ETA 2789 d/d, yours both have date only. Arenīt these 623.0001.3? Thatīs a reference I have in my register
                    Best regards, Mike
                    vintage-rado.de

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Here's my two cents. I think you've cracked the code on the movements. None of us here have ever figured that out. I can see more than a few reasons why it is an ETA production code, or a Rado delivery code and very few that would explain a watch date code.



                      I can see reasons for ETA to want to differentiate 5000 27XXs for a new end user that wants higher end movements.

                      I can see Rado using the 3 digit date code to easily cross reference the matching PO- the code 311 Peseux 7001 is destined for the next order of Honestas.

                      Etc.

                      Rado did there own decorating. Having worked on production lines of a sort, I know that producing a few of anything here and there is far less economical than doing a whole batch. Decorating one or five thousand movements on an order and then milling them later with the date code of the finished watch is even less economical. I can see them fully decorating an entire delivery of movements in one go. Nothing else makes economic sense.

                      How do you deal with unforseen problems and holdups in production? Grind off the offending number or produce a watch with a false date?

                      What do you do with holdbacks for service. I have never seen a 70s era Rado ETA without a code, presumably some of them have been replaced by the factory.

                      This is decades more recent and it is COSC, but here is an example of what I mean. I ruined the movement in my Diastar 40. I paid Rado to fix it. The watch was made in 2002 and the movement was changed in 2015. All the decoration is consistent and the COSC numbers are only a few hundred apart. Clearly everything was decorated back then.

                      Once again, individually marking a single movement does not seem economically sound.

                      Last but not least, and this is something we know for a fact- Why would Rado go to all the trouble to date a watch on the movement when they couldn't be bothered to write a serial number on a piece of paper for another...20-30 years?


                      If I sound snippy, I apologize. It's the cat problems.
                      Last edited by Henry Krinkle; 05-11-2017, 11:05 PM.
                      Solve all your doubts through question mode.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mike184 View Post
                        What about these DiaStars, Henry? Sure about the references?
                        625.xxxx.x stands for an ETA 2789 d/d, yours both have date only. Arenīt these 623.0001.3? Thatīs a reference I have in my register
                        Probably. I am not wearing my contact or my glasses and I really need both to see that.
                        Solve all your doubts through question mode.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Henry Krinkle View Post
                          No. Certainly not the movement, almost certainly not the watch. I am working with a 19 year old cat who was deathly ill mere days ago. I caught my own mistake, edited it, but left the post.
                          Sorry to hear about your cat Henry, it's never easy to have ones pets suffer or lose them. I hope the passing is peaceful.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Tim. View Post
                            Sorry to hear about your cat Henry, it's never easy to have ones pets suffer or lose them. I hope the passing is peaceful.
                            Oh, he has no intention of passing just yet. We're trying to work a deal with him, where he gets one more warm summer and then just evaporates. Two years ago I thought he would pass. Didn't. I worked the same deal with him then. Now he's 19 and three days ago he was acting like he had a stroke on top of not eating or sleeping or grooming or having bodily functions or, or or...

                            A little sleep, a little food, a little amoxicillin and a healthy dose of B-1 later and

                            18424116_10158134498937355_4795233660453964371_n.jpg
                            Last edited by Henry Krinkle; 05-11-2017, 11:29 PM.
                            Solve all your doubts through question mode.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Henry Krinkle View Post
                              Here's my two cents. I think you've cracked the code on the movements. None of us here have ever figured that out. I can see more than a few reasons why it is an ETA production code, or a Rado delivery code and very few that would explain a watch date code.



                              I can see reasons for ETA to want to differentiate 5000 27XXs for a new end user that wants higher end movements.

                              I can see Rado using the 3 digit date code to easily cross reference the matching PO- the code 311 Peseux 7001 is destined for the next order of Honestas.

                              Etc.

                              Rado did there own decorating. Having worked on production lines of a sort, I know that producing a few of anything here and there is far less economical than doing a whole batch. Decorating one or five thousand movements on an order and then milling them later with the date code of the finished watch is even less economical. I can see them fully decorating an entire delivery of movements in one go. Nothing else makes economic sense.

                              How do you deal with unforseen problems and holdups in production? Grind off the offending number or produce a watch with a false date?

                              What do you do with holdbacks for service. I have never seen a 70s era Rado ETA without a code, presumably some of them have been replaced by the factory.

                              This is decades more recent and it is COSC, but here is an example of what I mean. I ruined the movement in my Diastar 40. I paid Rado to fix it. The watch was made in 2002 and the movement was changed in 2015. All the decoration is consistent and the COSC numbers are only a few hundred apart. Clearly everything was decorated back then.

                              Once again, individually marking a single movement does not seem economically sound.

                              Last but not least, and this is something we know for a fact- Why would Rado go to all the trouble to date a watch on the movement when they couldn't be bothered to write a serial number on a piece of paper for another...20-30 years?


                              If I sound snippy, I apologize. It's the cat problems.
                              Thanks Henry, no snip taken. I don't necessarily disagree with you, in fact if we could just get a bit more data it may well prove your point, without disproving my theory about the purpose of the "E", which, after all, is based on the movement used and only secondarily on the date code. Perhaps though, if you are right, the date code, even though not entirely accurate, is still a reasonable point of reference and so far at least, has tended to be a good fit for the existing manufacturing data we have. At the end of this process I am prepared for the fact that we may never have an accurate date and simply to say, the "E" was dropped and the 8 digit refs began sometime between late '73 and mid to late '74. I'm also hoping we will be able to say that the "E" stood for ETA and that we'll have made some small progress in explaining the enigma that is RADO.
                              Last edited by Tim.; 05-12-2017, 12:28 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I think your "E" theory is as good as any, if not better.

                                Yes, even a dated movement code is a valid starting point. On big production runs I have seen numerous date codes. Rado would be foolish to order all 20,000 or 50,000 movements at one go. I suspect if this theory is correct one could stll narrow production data to within, say, 5,000 units.
                                Solve all your doubts through question mode.

                                Comment

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